agonyaunt | (no subject)

Dear Amy: I have lived my life trying to help people. I have “gone to the rescue” many times to help people who were needy or suicidal or addicted and in need of therapy or treatment. And it does make me happy when I think I have been able to help someone.

Recently one of my children told me that since I derive happiness from helping others, that I am really selfish and that my actions are no more laudable than other people who pursue happiness through other selfish means.

The idea shocked me. What do you think?

– Shocked Mom

Dear Shocked: “Selfish” is probably the most pejorative word to describe your tendency to rescue people, but your child is obviously trying to make a point.

You are behaving in a way that satisfies your own needs, but on the selfish-scale I’d put your behavior way ahead of, say, someone who ignores the desperate cries of others. Those who need rescuing are no doubt grateful for your so-called selfishness, but a true “rescuer” derives her sense of self through rescuing others.

The point being that this identity might prevent you from relating to people who don’t have Big Problems, and you might neglect some people in your life (this child, for instance) who would love to have your full attention without having to be in crisis in order to get it.

Selfish? No. Self-serving? Perhaps. And do your many rescues require additional positive attention? Do you enjoy being “lauded” for your actions? That’s your ego’s role in keeping the cycle going.

When one of your children lobs a little bomb like this over the fence, the challenging and more mature reaction is to see it as an opportunity to hear them out. And so you might respond: “Hmm, that’s pretty shocking. I don’t see myself as selfish, but it sounds like you’re trying to tell me about how my tendency to help other people affects you. Maybe you can rescue me from this uncertainty by expanding on your thoughts.”

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I'm not sure I'd call LW selfish either, but the word "codependent" did spring to mind. It's not really healthy for anybody, rescuer or rescued, to make your entire life about helping others.

I wonder if LW is one of those people who is always rushing out to help people to the neglect of their nearer people and possibly upsetting existing arrangements to do so, and maybe also involving other people who did not actually volunteer in their helping efforts....

I notice that LW has gone to the rescue many times, her words, to help people who were struggling with addiction or were suicidal. How many suicidal, addicted, or otherwise seriously needy people does LW even know?

On the one hand, I am concerned by LW's language in describing their own actions.

On the other, the child may have seen too much The Good Place or been in tumblr's pop-psychology circles as there was a thing running around that if you feel GOOD for doing something good for others, ultimately it is selfish in nature, as you derive reward.

To which I gave a hearty 'fuck-you' to the sentiment and engaged much blocking.

So I don't think this is quite as clear-cut as it could be, and communication between child and parent needs to be happening, possibly with a therapist, as there may be some underlying neglect in place, as well as justified resentment.

'She's the kind of woman who lives for others; you can tell them by their hunted expressions...'

How many of them needed rescuing?

I was about to say pretty much this, yeah. I think the idea that enjoying doing something good invalidates the goodness is a Protestant, maybe Calvinist relic, but there is a definite difference, hard to describe but fairly easy to see, between being glad to help and making a point of finding or making situations where help is needed primarily as self-validation and only secondarily to actually help others.

Also, there's a lot of context missing. There's a big difference between a fourteen year old trying to describe how they're being neglected and a thirty year old worried about how much of "their" inheritance is being spent, for just two of infinite possibilities.

yeah I read this one as Missing Reasons out the wazoo. Because this could be a lot of things, from the inheritance/teen neglect examples, or LW pushing "help" where it's not wanted, to LW's kid bringing home some undergrad philosophy courses and not realizing how LW would take it, to the kid just being sick of LW bragging about how good a person they were, to the kid being angry at feeling less moral than their parent... honestly there's so much missing info here I don't even feel qualified to speculate.

I think it was also the plot of a Friends episode where Chandler and Joey convince Phoebe (I think) that any good things she does don't count if they also make her feel good.

It is a deeply stupid idea that treats selfish and selfless as absolute and separate, rather than as the ends of a spectrum.

However, I agree that coming from your child, there is a subtext that is worth engaging with, even when the surface level is banal.

It depends on the communities you’re a part of. As a queer and trans disabled person who primarily spends time with other people from those communities, I know a lot of traumatized folks who deal with these issues; in fact, folks who aren’t in crisis on a regular basis are the rarity among those I know. It’s exhausting and draining, but it is what it is.

For some reason, I am pinging on the letter from the grandmother whose daughter did not tell her that daughter's child was in the hospital until three weeks had passed, and LW's response was to (a) complain that the other grandmother had been allowed to help more and (b) begin "helping" by setting up schedules and appointments and all kind of things the daughter didn't need. I could be completely projecting, here, but I wonder if LW is the type to steamroll in with their "help."

Or, yeah, the kid could have been introduced to some toxic philosophy.

“LW's kid bringing home some undergrad philosophy courses”

My guess was, “Got stoned in the dorms and discussed Deep Thoughts.”

That is the kind of situation I was thinking of when I wrote about "finding or making situations where help is needed," or more accurately, where the person doing so can feel that their help is needed. Or, in other words, I don't think you're projecting at all.

I really wish I knew how old the child is. This is very different if it's a high schooler, a college student, or fully-launched adult. And in all of those scenarios, it's hard to tell from what the LW says if the kid's concern is for their mom or for themselves. So, yeah, a longer conversation seems the right response, though I don't really like Amy's phrasing.

I think the "selfish" depends on how the LW talks about her good deeds. Like if she does them without expecting praise that's one thing, but if she's like my mother and always has to talk about all the good things she's done for other people, then yeah, I can see why her child would call her actions selfish.

I've known plenty of people, mostly women, who "came to the rescue" in the most selfish way possible, generally by becoming completely controlling of their poor victims' lives and choices, and the specific way she describes the people she's helping makes me.... wonder.

(I have also known people who use it for self-harm, and the way she's careful to say it makes her "happy" makes me wonder if that's what the child is calling out as selfish; especially for a teenager that chain of logic would make sense.)

But on the other hand, it is pretty common for people of a certain age to come to the philosophical conclusion that doing things that make you happy is always selfish. So it's hard to make a call here.

My mother is a broken person. Quite awhile ago I realized that my mother collects people who are more broken than her so she can "save" them on the regular. it makes her feel good. it also means she doesn't deal with her own broken-ness. She is too busy "helping" to take care of herself or her problems. I can see this as an option.

I also agree with others above. it depends on the age of the kid and if they have been exposed to basic philosophy. They might have come up with the easiest words they have right now but they perhaps have some other thoughts behind it. If LW is wanting to understand they need a deeper conversation with their kid.

The thing I wondered is whether LW calls others "selfish" for not behaving as she does, and/or for doing things for their own pleasure, and the kid was pushing back on that. Because then her kid might just be saying, hey, you do what you do because it gives you joy, that's just as much "selfish" (for yourself) as someone engaging in any other personal hobby.

Mine, too.

I wondered if the kid was arguing there's no such thing as altruism ala Ayn Rand.

I like trying to help people too. I also feel like it’s a tendency that can be harmful if not managed carefully. What bothers me about LW is that she’s “shocked” at what her kid said. Anyone who tries to help people a lot and doesn’t realize (a) that they are driven in part by their own desires and (b) that their actions aren’t automatically “more laudable” than other actions has the capacity to be a real menace. LW, get thee to a CodA meeting (or look more deeply into your hobby in some other way). And yes, also be genuinely curious about why your kid said this to you.