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agonyaunt2021-04-02 11:44 am
minoanmiss) wrote in agonyaunt2021-04-02 11:44 am
Entry tags:
Dear Prudence: Secret Conservative
This one is a transcript.
S2: Yeah. A subject is living a secret life. Dear Prudence, in my personal and professional life, I am extremely liberal. I work at a non-profit, surround myself with liberal, college educated folks and have many close friends of color. I am also non-white. However, in the past three or so years, I’ve gotten increasingly uncomfortable with the identity politics and tribalism of our country’s political discourse. I feel like it’s pushed me to lose basic empathy for folks based on their race, gender or other identities that are not minority identities. I hate this. I feel disconnected and I’ve started to assume the worst in particular people. It doesn’t help that I basically live in an echo chamber with people who refuse to engage in conversation. I’ve gotten shut down enough times, told that certain viewpoints are non-negotiable and quote, violent even when I’m just seeking to understand or ask questions. Last year, I turned to a popular social media site with many discussion boards, one of which criticizes identity politics from a leftist progressive standpoint, I feel so seen. It’s a place where I can discuss class struggles without the weight of identity politics and where I can criticize the direction of American liberalism. These past few years, I’ve been able to engage in deep and thoughtful conversations for the first time in years. I spend one to two hours a day on this site and I found it makes me happier and feel more connected to people in my real life now that tribalism is not the forefront of every interaction, but I’m starting to feel like I’m living a secret. My husband, friends and colleagues would be aghast that I participate in this message board. They often rail against people with views exactly like mine. Should I share what I’ve been involved in? What if I do that and it hurts my relationship? Would that be worth it? Please help. Our future with questions like this, you got to tell me the name of the site, I won’t publish it if you don’t want me to, but like, are you in the comments section of Cuil let you know
S1: there’s some Ayn Rand kind of stuff. Is it 4chan?
S2: You know, is it like what is the website? Is it animal crossing message boards? Like, you must tell me what it is because I will have a different answer depending on what website you are spending two hours a day talking to people on.
S1: Yeah, I feel like depending on this space, I sort of have two different answers.
S2: Do you want to start with one and then the other?
S1: So so the if I accept the premise or assume the premise that this Internet space is a genuinely healthy space where no one is engaging in harmful behavior. Then I think it’s important that this person says, I feel so seen and that they’ve been able to engage in deep and thoughtful conversations for the first time in years, that actually feels important, that they don’t feel seen or like they’re engaging in deep and thoughtful conversations in their real life. And it’s also interesting that time spent in the space allows them to feel more connected to people in their real lives, like like somehow that that part of themselves has air and they can just kind of focus on different aspects of their relationships with people in real life. So, like is the voice in this person’s head that saying this is bad via Ghast voice? Is this a voice that comes from the most judgmental corners of their community? And is is this a voice that they maybe should practice dissociating from and taking space from and sort of compartmentalizing a little bit to just give space to this thing that seems maybe liberating or healing or whatever? And are they participating in their community in a way that feels healthy and right? Are they. Is their community full of people? They really. You know, are good, healthy people to be with, are they hanging out with people who are super geggie and, you know, like are these relationships healthy? So so that’s like a generous rating. That’s like if if I’m just kind of believing what they’re saying. But as with all Internets, you might be, I don’t know, like I if I knew what this space was, I might I might feel differently because there’s this. If someone’s participating in an up to upsidedown space, that’s. Really just bad for humanity.
S2: Mm hmm. Yeah, I certainly raised both of my eyebrows when I got to. It’s a place where I can discuss class struggles without the weight of identity politics. Yeah, because first of all, whenever somebody says that, they usually don’t mean at last. I can just talk about the black working class struggle. They mean white working class. The implication there is, I think quite clearly class comes first. Racial and other identities come second.
S1: Intersectionality doesn’t exist and is much like
S2: what’s the default identity? You know, that one, that normal one that normal people are. So, you know, this fantasy that there is somehow an engagement with with class issues that can come without the lens of of of race and racism and specifically anti black racism in this country. And the letter writer describes himself as non-white. I don’t know whether or not that encompasses blackness in any way, but I just I think it is a fantasy to think racial identity is a distraction from the real issue, which is class. I mean, if you look at the history of class in this country, you know, the transatlantic slave trade is indelibly bound up with the origins of capitalism in this country. You know, the the theft of land and attempted genocide of of Native American populations in this country. Like it’s not it’s not like there was class struggle. And then in the 60s, a bunch of people said, let’s throw this race into the mix just for fun. So, you know, yeah, whatever group of people is is doing this. And it’s like, oh, thank God. We can just talk about Archie Bunker now. It’s just like,
S1: oh, by the way, when you’re talking about Archie Bunker, you’re talking about race. Even if you don’t admit it,
S2: whiteness is a race. Thanks so much for bringing that up. It’s an identity, shockingly enough. You know, I would I would really, you know, critically look at the part of yourself that feels relieved when you talk about class struggles without the weight of identity. Which identities are you sick of hearing about? Which ones feel like a relief to get away from? What is the identity that feels like a safe, comfy default that you like thinking about and then also not thinking about how that’s what you’re thinking about? Mm hmm. Ask yourself those questions. I can’t answer them for you. I have some theories. I have some gut instincts. But you’re going to have to do the work there. You know, this idea that being liberal means you hang out with a lot of people who went to college. You have close friends of color and you work at a non-profit. I I’m not surprised you’re feeling kind of exhausted by that idea of this is the this is the foundation of how I see the world. This is my foundation of how I create my politics. That sounds shallow and exhausting. Non-profits I have talked about before on the show are not just like good companies that do good things. They’re often, you know, hotbeds of exploitation and wild overhead and incredibly, incredibly distressing interpersonal workplace dynamics. You know, a friend who is just saying like they were on a call earlier today, they work at a non-profit. They’re like, well, we’re on minute 20 of our opening grounding exercise. I don’t want these fucking strangers to know anything about how I feel in my body right now. This is exhausting. You know, like profits are not just like the good thing you’re supposed to like if you are, quote unquote liberal, hanging out with a lot of people who went to college just actually means you have class solidarity with other college educated people. I don’t think there’s anything especially conservative or liberal about that. That’s just moneyed class solidarity. Yeah, you have a lot of close friends. That’s great. I don’t have a particular issue there. But those first two things I think are perhaps part of the reason that you feel exhausted is because you did not have a meaningful sense of working class solidarity that existed in your real life before this. And if the first place you’re finding a sense of that solidarity is on the Internet, it might be worth asking, how could I dedicate some of my time and energy and sense of community to real life organizations that are working towards some aims that I think are valuable near me?
S1: Yeah, like how how can I live my life in a way that embodies my values beyond spending time on a chat board talking about stuff that, you know, agreeing with other people, not that that’s like, you know, useless time or not meaningful, but. I don’t know, like I think there’s some there’s some important ground to be covered beyond the Internet space.
S2: Yeah, and I’m glad you brought that up, too, because I feel like I came out swinging. And I want to scale back a little bit and grant this letter writer a little bit more space. So, you know, it’s really possible that part of the reason that you feel relieved and good on the site is because your friends have a habit of going into, you know, model U.N. mode in conversation and are quick to shout you down. It may take you a little while longer to gather your thoughts when you’re trying to discuss a particularly complicated issue or when you disagree with someone you care about. And so it may feel like a relief to be able to sit down and without having to deal with somebody else’s immediate affect, you can write out your thoughts and consider them carefully and then wait for replies. That might be an indicator that there’s something missing when it comes to the way that you talk to your friends. And I don’t mean that it’s your fault or their fault necessarily, just might be an indicator that there’s a hunger or a desire on your part to have conversations that are less defensive or less shouty or less debate oriented. And that would make a lot of sense to me. And I would hope you could go to your friends and share some of that with them and ask them to switch up. The way they approach such conversations a bit might also be an indicator that you want to expand your circle of friends, maybe to include people who don’t all just, you know, didn’t all just meet at the same college and then go on to work for non-profits. And I get sorry, I don’t want to be like go out and collect nine working class friends today, like shake hands until you find somebody with calluses and say you seem authentic. Will you be my friend? So I apologize if it sounded really like cheesy or utopian or like go get someone. But yeah, there might be an indicator there that there’s a need there that that you’re not yet getting fulfilled.
S1: Yeah, exactly.
S2: I don’t know what viewpoints your friends have told you are non-negotiable or violent when you are just trying to ask questions. There are some subjects where I would think that’s a lousy thing for your friends to do. And there are some subjects where I would think, yeah, your friends are fucking right. Get just ask questions about this like, yeah, there are certainly subjects about which like quote unquote, just asking questions is a real dick move.
S1: Yeah, it’s hard to know where or what to say when you’re not sure what the specifics are.
S2: Yeah. Again, this is a letter that requires more specifics than it’s prepared to offer. You know, it’s also a lot easier to talk to people who are just on this same website as you and who disappear back into their own daily lives when they log off, just as you do. So not to totally dismiss all of that, I’m glad you have found some connections again, assuming it’s not on Corlett. But if you feel like you can be a better friend to your friends because you are scratching an itch that you can keep a secret from them and you are now able to do a better job of pretending to agree with them all the time. That, I think, is an indicator that you are heading for further conflict and further alienation. If it means you feel slightly more capable of disagreeing openly with your friends, of asking for more patience or understanding, of trying to reorient some conversation, and then that might be a good thing. But I just don’t know. Like, does your husband really say things like, man, anyone who wants to talk about class struggles without putting tribalism at the forefront is a fool? Or does he have other object? Like is his objection the progressive angle of this critique or his is, is his objection of this critique. Something like this wants to return to whiteness as default. And Norm and I don’t want to do that. And I feel like it can absolutely be exhausting if if all your friends begin conversations with like, well, as a woman or like well as a trans person and like if that’s like as a trans person, I would like a BLT for lunch. Absolutely. I’m not saying that you have to, like, agree with everything that they say or think. There may very well be ways in which they are exhausting, but you’re never going to resolve that with them by complaining about their viewpoints to strangers on the Internet.
S1: Yes, exactly. There’s it’s very interesting that this experience has made you see kind of yourself in two forms. So who are you? Who are you going to be? This might be a turning point. I don’t know where it goes from here.
S2: Yeah, I mean, I think step one is trying to identify what feels good about this. Another one would be trying to figure out what you want to change in your relationship with your friend, your husband. Another one might be whether or not you want to get out of the non-profit world, which can be just so damn dysfunctional.
S1: It’s not necessarily dysfunctional. There are wonderful
S2: nonprofits. I don’t want to actually actually, I feel like I, I have just encountered enough letters where someone’s like never considered the possibility that a nonprofit is not the exact same thing as its mission. Like you might be a nonprofit that is dedicated to helping people find housing. But that is not the same thing as caring about unannounced people. But you’re right. I feel like I want to be careful not to go so far over the on the other end that I’m just like, if you work for a nonprofit, they’re going to kill you and, you know, right out of your body and exploit it in death. So thank you for that check.
S1: Workplaces are shitty. I don’t care if you’re at the top of a tall tower in Midtown or working at the public school down the street.
S2: Workplaces are shitty, but thank you for catching me. I was definitely, definitely spinning off the rails there. Yeah. So beyond that, yeah, you should probably start to share a little bit about what you’ve been involved in. You also tell everybody everything right away. But yeah, you start with your partner, try to figure out what are things that feel really important to you versus what doesn’t. And yeah, if it hurts your relationships. The Gulf is already there, you know, it it might feel painful, but it wouldn’t be creating a problem. They already don’t know a huge part about your interior experience. Right. So good luck and write back and tell us the website is for real. Want to know? I’m so curious. It was just like a Trainspotting message board, maybe just a bunch of people who are really into trains and sick of hearing about gay people.
S1: But that’s I mean, look at
S2: the look on your face was just like, oh, that’d be a shame.
S2: Yeah. A subject is living a secret life. Dear Prudence, in my personal and professional life, I am extremely liberal. I work at a non-profit, surround myself with liberal, college educated folks and have many close friends of color. I am also non-white. However, in the past three or so years, I’ve gotten increasingly uncomfortable with the identity politics and tribalism of our country’s political discourse. I feel like it’s pushed me to lose basic empathy for folks based on their race, gender or other identities that are not minority identities. I hate this. I feel disconnected and I’ve started to assume the worst in particular people. It doesn’t help that I basically live in an echo chamber with people who refuse to engage in conversation. I’ve gotten shut down enough times, told that certain viewpoints are non-negotiable and quote, violent even when I’m just seeking to understand or ask questions. Last year, I turned to a popular social media site with many discussion boards, one of which criticizes identity politics from a leftist progressive standpoint, I feel so seen. It’s a place where I can discuss class struggles without the weight of identity politics and where I can criticize the direction of American liberalism. These past few years, I’ve been able to engage in deep and thoughtful conversations for the first time in years. I spend one to two hours a day on this site and I found it makes me happier and feel more connected to people in my real life now that tribalism is not the forefront of every interaction, but I’m starting to feel like I’m living a secret. My husband, friends and colleagues would be aghast that I participate in this message board. They often rail against people with views exactly like mine. Should I share what I’ve been involved in? What if I do that and it hurts my relationship? Would that be worth it? Please help. Our future with questions like this, you got to tell me the name of the site, I won’t publish it if you don’t want me to, but like, are you in the comments section of Cuil let you know
S1: there’s some Ayn Rand kind of stuff. Is it 4chan?
S2: You know, is it like what is the website? Is it animal crossing message boards? Like, you must tell me what it is because I will have a different answer depending on what website you are spending two hours a day talking to people on.
S1: Yeah, I feel like depending on this space, I sort of have two different answers.
S2: Do you want to start with one and then the other?
S1: So so the if I accept the premise or assume the premise that this Internet space is a genuinely healthy space where no one is engaging in harmful behavior. Then I think it’s important that this person says, I feel so seen and that they’ve been able to engage in deep and thoughtful conversations for the first time in years, that actually feels important, that they don’t feel seen or like they’re engaging in deep and thoughtful conversations in their real life. And it’s also interesting that time spent in the space allows them to feel more connected to people in their real lives, like like somehow that that part of themselves has air and they can just kind of focus on different aspects of their relationships with people in real life. So, like is the voice in this person’s head that saying this is bad via Ghast voice? Is this a voice that comes from the most judgmental corners of their community? And is is this a voice that they maybe should practice dissociating from and taking space from and sort of compartmentalizing a little bit to just give space to this thing that seems maybe liberating or healing or whatever? And are they participating in their community in a way that feels healthy and right? Are they. Is their community full of people? They really. You know, are good, healthy people to be with, are they hanging out with people who are super geggie and, you know, like are these relationships healthy? So so that’s like a generous rating. That’s like if if I’m just kind of believing what they’re saying. But as with all Internets, you might be, I don’t know, like I if I knew what this space was, I might I might feel differently because there’s this. If someone’s participating in an up to upsidedown space, that’s. Really just bad for humanity.
S2: Mm hmm. Yeah, I certainly raised both of my eyebrows when I got to. It’s a place where I can discuss class struggles without the weight of identity politics. Yeah, because first of all, whenever somebody says that, they usually don’t mean at last. I can just talk about the black working class struggle. They mean white working class. The implication there is, I think quite clearly class comes first. Racial and other identities come second.
S1: Intersectionality doesn’t exist and is much like
S2: what’s the default identity? You know, that one, that normal one that normal people are. So, you know, this fantasy that there is somehow an engagement with with class issues that can come without the lens of of of race and racism and specifically anti black racism in this country. And the letter writer describes himself as non-white. I don’t know whether or not that encompasses blackness in any way, but I just I think it is a fantasy to think racial identity is a distraction from the real issue, which is class. I mean, if you look at the history of class in this country, you know, the transatlantic slave trade is indelibly bound up with the origins of capitalism in this country. You know, the the theft of land and attempted genocide of of Native American populations in this country. Like it’s not it’s not like there was class struggle. And then in the 60s, a bunch of people said, let’s throw this race into the mix just for fun. So, you know, yeah, whatever group of people is is doing this. And it’s like, oh, thank God. We can just talk about Archie Bunker now. It’s just like,
S1: oh, by the way, when you’re talking about Archie Bunker, you’re talking about race. Even if you don’t admit it,
S2: whiteness is a race. Thanks so much for bringing that up. It’s an identity, shockingly enough. You know, I would I would really, you know, critically look at the part of yourself that feels relieved when you talk about class struggles without the weight of identity. Which identities are you sick of hearing about? Which ones feel like a relief to get away from? What is the identity that feels like a safe, comfy default that you like thinking about and then also not thinking about how that’s what you’re thinking about? Mm hmm. Ask yourself those questions. I can’t answer them for you. I have some theories. I have some gut instincts. But you’re going to have to do the work there. You know, this idea that being liberal means you hang out with a lot of people who went to college. You have close friends of color and you work at a non-profit. I I’m not surprised you’re feeling kind of exhausted by that idea of this is the this is the foundation of how I see the world. This is my foundation of how I create my politics. That sounds shallow and exhausting. Non-profits I have talked about before on the show are not just like good companies that do good things. They’re often, you know, hotbeds of exploitation and wild overhead and incredibly, incredibly distressing interpersonal workplace dynamics. You know, a friend who is just saying like they were on a call earlier today, they work at a non-profit. They’re like, well, we’re on minute 20 of our opening grounding exercise. I don’t want these fucking strangers to know anything about how I feel in my body right now. This is exhausting. You know, like profits are not just like the good thing you’re supposed to like if you are, quote unquote liberal, hanging out with a lot of people who went to college just actually means you have class solidarity with other college educated people. I don’t think there’s anything especially conservative or liberal about that. That’s just moneyed class solidarity. Yeah, you have a lot of close friends. That’s great. I don’t have a particular issue there. But those first two things I think are perhaps part of the reason that you feel exhausted is because you did not have a meaningful sense of working class solidarity that existed in your real life before this. And if the first place you’re finding a sense of that solidarity is on the Internet, it might be worth asking, how could I dedicate some of my time and energy and sense of community to real life organizations that are working towards some aims that I think are valuable near me?
S1: Yeah, like how how can I live my life in a way that embodies my values beyond spending time on a chat board talking about stuff that, you know, agreeing with other people, not that that’s like, you know, useless time or not meaningful, but. I don’t know, like I think there’s some there’s some important ground to be covered beyond the Internet space.
S2: Yeah, and I’m glad you brought that up, too, because I feel like I came out swinging. And I want to scale back a little bit and grant this letter writer a little bit more space. So, you know, it’s really possible that part of the reason that you feel relieved and good on the site is because your friends have a habit of going into, you know, model U.N. mode in conversation and are quick to shout you down. It may take you a little while longer to gather your thoughts when you’re trying to discuss a particularly complicated issue or when you disagree with someone you care about. And so it may feel like a relief to be able to sit down and without having to deal with somebody else’s immediate affect, you can write out your thoughts and consider them carefully and then wait for replies. That might be an indicator that there’s something missing when it comes to the way that you talk to your friends. And I don’t mean that it’s your fault or their fault necessarily, just might be an indicator that there’s a hunger or a desire on your part to have conversations that are less defensive or less shouty or less debate oriented. And that would make a lot of sense to me. And I would hope you could go to your friends and share some of that with them and ask them to switch up. The way they approach such conversations a bit might also be an indicator that you want to expand your circle of friends, maybe to include people who don’t all just, you know, didn’t all just meet at the same college and then go on to work for non-profits. And I get sorry, I don’t want to be like go out and collect nine working class friends today, like shake hands until you find somebody with calluses and say you seem authentic. Will you be my friend? So I apologize if it sounded really like cheesy or utopian or like go get someone. But yeah, there might be an indicator there that there’s a need there that that you’re not yet getting fulfilled.
S1: Yeah, exactly.
S2: I don’t know what viewpoints your friends have told you are non-negotiable or violent when you are just trying to ask questions. There are some subjects where I would think that’s a lousy thing for your friends to do. And there are some subjects where I would think, yeah, your friends are fucking right. Get just ask questions about this like, yeah, there are certainly subjects about which like quote unquote, just asking questions is a real dick move.
S1: Yeah, it’s hard to know where or what to say when you’re not sure what the specifics are.
S2: Yeah. Again, this is a letter that requires more specifics than it’s prepared to offer. You know, it’s also a lot easier to talk to people who are just on this same website as you and who disappear back into their own daily lives when they log off, just as you do. So not to totally dismiss all of that, I’m glad you have found some connections again, assuming it’s not on Corlett. But if you feel like you can be a better friend to your friends because you are scratching an itch that you can keep a secret from them and you are now able to do a better job of pretending to agree with them all the time. That, I think, is an indicator that you are heading for further conflict and further alienation. If it means you feel slightly more capable of disagreeing openly with your friends, of asking for more patience or understanding, of trying to reorient some conversation, and then that might be a good thing. But I just don’t know. Like, does your husband really say things like, man, anyone who wants to talk about class struggles without putting tribalism at the forefront is a fool? Or does he have other object? Like is his objection the progressive angle of this critique or his is, is his objection of this critique. Something like this wants to return to whiteness as default. And Norm and I don’t want to do that. And I feel like it can absolutely be exhausting if if all your friends begin conversations with like, well, as a woman or like well as a trans person and like if that’s like as a trans person, I would like a BLT for lunch. Absolutely. I’m not saying that you have to, like, agree with everything that they say or think. There may very well be ways in which they are exhausting, but you’re never going to resolve that with them by complaining about their viewpoints to strangers on the Internet.
S1: Yes, exactly. There’s it’s very interesting that this experience has made you see kind of yourself in two forms. So who are you? Who are you going to be? This might be a turning point. I don’t know where it goes from here.
S2: Yeah, I mean, I think step one is trying to identify what feels good about this. Another one would be trying to figure out what you want to change in your relationship with your friend, your husband. Another one might be whether or not you want to get out of the non-profit world, which can be just so damn dysfunctional.
S1: It’s not necessarily dysfunctional. There are wonderful
S2: nonprofits. I don’t want to actually actually, I feel like I, I have just encountered enough letters where someone’s like never considered the possibility that a nonprofit is not the exact same thing as its mission. Like you might be a nonprofit that is dedicated to helping people find housing. But that is not the same thing as caring about unannounced people. But you’re right. I feel like I want to be careful not to go so far over the on the other end that I’m just like, if you work for a nonprofit, they’re going to kill you and, you know, right out of your body and exploit it in death. So thank you for that check.
S1: Workplaces are shitty. I don’t care if you’re at the top of a tall tower in Midtown or working at the public school down the street.
S2: Workplaces are shitty, but thank you for catching me. I was definitely, definitely spinning off the rails there. Yeah. So beyond that, yeah, you should probably start to share a little bit about what you’ve been involved in. You also tell everybody everything right away. But yeah, you start with your partner, try to figure out what are things that feel really important to you versus what doesn’t. And yeah, if it hurts your relationships. The Gulf is already there, you know, it it might feel painful, but it wouldn’t be creating a problem. They already don’t know a huge part about your interior experience. Right. So good luck and write back and tell us the website is for real. Want to know? I’m so curious. It was just like a Trainspotting message board, maybe just a bunch of people who are really into trains and sick of hearing about gay people.
S1: But that’s I mean, look at
S2: the look on your face was just like, oh, that’d be a shame.
no subject
... more seriously, I have heard this complaint before about aggregates of liberals. "I can't talk to them! People shut me down! Acknowledging that our backgrounds influence our perspectives = 'identity politics', and we should all just say that we're people together instead!" Being me, I've been in places where the people around me were much more liberal than me, and places where the people around me were much more conservative than me. And well, in general, people I'm more conservative than can be annoying but are often thought provoking (and one of the reasons I've become much more liberal). People I'm more liberal than tend to be terrifying.
no subject
but also -- yeah, LW. where are you hanging out online? because you have to ask yourself that, as well.
no subject
no subject